From c0baa555495d70dcae9dcaa673257d71ef9ffba5 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: "Ryan C. Gordon" Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:11:36 +0000 Subject: [PATCH] Removed zlib_license_change.txt. --- CHANGELOG | 2 + zlib_license_change.txt | 786 ---------------------------------------- 2 files changed, 2 insertions(+), 786 deletions(-) delete mode 100644 zlib_license_change.txt diff --git a/CHANGELOG b/CHANGELOG index 7b28ed6d..69e38225 100644 --- a/CHANGELOG +++ b/CHANGELOG @@ -2,6 +2,8 @@ * CHANGELOG. */ +03112007 - Removed zlib_license_change.txt ... it's in Subversion and the 1.0 + branch for history's sake. 03082007 - Fixed a comment in physfs.h. Renamed win32.c to windows.c. Cleaned up whitespace/formatting in pocketpc.c. Updated PocketPC code to expect UTF-8 strings from the higher level. Changed diff --git a/zlib_license_change.txt b/zlib_license_change.txt deleted file mode 100644 index 24bd0672..00000000 --- a/zlib_license_change.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,786 +0,0 @@ -Original discussion is partially quoted in here, thread is archived at: - http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?4:mss:209:200306:nhnacekcfbbhichggfpk - - -These are the emails I got approving the change to a zlib license. I have -removed the authors' email addresses for spam safety. --ryan. - - - - - - - -From xxxxxxxxxxx Mon Jun 9 07:56:24 2003 -Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:17:18 +0100 -From: Adam D. Moss -Reply-To: "physfs@icculus.org" -To: "physfs@icculus.org" -Subject: Re: [physfs] License change proposition. - - -"I approve of a switch to the zlib license for code I own -in PhysicsFS" (and think it's generally a swell idea...) - -> Adam D. Moss -> ------------ -> extras/abs-file.h (need you to sign off on whole file): -> http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/co.php/extras/abs-file.h?rt=physfs&r=1.3 - - --- -Adam D. Moss . ,,^^ xxxxxxxxx http://www.foxbox.org/ co:3 -"Responsible parents don't raise kids in West Virginia." - - -From xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Mon Jun 9 16:45:02 2003 -Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:37:31 -0700 -From: Bradley Bell -Reply-To: "physfs@icculus.org" -To: "physfs@icculus.org" -Subject: Re: [physfs] License change proposition. - - [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ] - [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ] - [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ] - -Quoting "Ryan C. Gordon" : - -> Please discuss. - -Sounds fine to me. And it makes it easier for me to use it in d2x. (which has a -very confusing license) - --brad - - - -From xxxxxxxxxxxx Mon Jun 9 16:45:12 2003 -Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:00:13 -0700 -From: David Hedbor -To: Ryan C. Gordon -Subject: Re: [physfs] License change proposition. - -As mentioned before, I'm all for the license change since it would -benefit me personally. --- -[ Below is a random fortune, which is unrelated to the above message. ] -The Hollywood tradition I like best is called "sucking up to the stars." - -- Johnny Carson - - -From xxxxxxxxxxxxx Mon Jun 9 16:45:22 2003 -Date: 09 Jun 2003 14:13:00 -0500 -From: Edward Rudd -Reply-To: "physfs@icculus.org" -To: "physfs@icculus.org" -Subject: Re: [physfs] License change proposition. - -On Mon, 2003-06-09 at 05:50, Ryan C. Gordon wrote: -That's fine with me.. You have permissions from me. -> -> Edward Rudd -> ----------- -> RPM specfile (need you to sign off on whole file): -> http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/cvs.php/physfs.spec.in?rt=physfs - --- -Edward Rudd -Home Page - - -From xxxxxxxxxxx Wed Jun 11 13:15:28 2003 -Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:43:43 -0700 (PDT) -From: Eric Wing -To: Ryan C. Gordon -Subject: Re: [physfs] License change proposition. - -Hi Ryan, -Sorry for the delayed response. (email troubles at -Stanford among other things) - -I approve of a switch to the zlib license for -code I own in PhysicsFS, so you can sign off -everything I have there. - -Thanks, -Eric - - ---- "Ryan C. Gordon" -wrote: -> -> I like to be helpful when people ask me questions -> about PhysicsFS. I may not -> always have an immediate solution, but I hate -> telling people "that can't be -> done at all". -> -> There is one problem that comes up a lot at which I -> just have to shrug my -> shoulders, and that's distribution. -> -> PhysicsFS, being LGPL'd, can not be statically -> linked to a closed-source -> program. Generally this is not an obstacle so much -> as an annoyance for the -> application developer, since they need to ship a -> shared library and do some -> other legal tapdancing (hey, _someone_ will be a -> pain and demand a copy of the -> physfs source tree by postal mail someday!). End -> result: developers unhappily -> put up with distribution issues and possible bug -> reports, or they do without. -> -> There are places where this annoyance can be a -> showstopper, though. For -> example, I was contacted about a year ago by a game -> shop that wanted to use -> PhysicsFS in a PlayStation 2 title, since the -> PhysicsFS API combined with -> its efficient zipfile archiver is _very_ appealing -> in light of the PSX2's -> awful native filesystem limitations. -> -> How does one ship an LGPL'd library in a console -> game? End users can't relink -> the bugger, after all. Furthermore, their legal -> department had a fit when they -> heard about the "viral" nature of the license when -> statically linking it... -> there is no such thing as "dynamic" linking on a -> PlayStation 2. -> -> Now, here's the lesson for any future project -> maintainers: either don't accept -> patches, or make sure you own the copyright on _all_ -> the code before accepting -> it. I have poured years of effort into PhysicsFS, -> but I don't own all the code, -> so I couldn't just grant a license exemption to this -> console developer. End -> result: they did without. -> -> I don't like my own hands being tied by my own -> license. That really doesn't -> seem fair to me. -> -> So for these reasons, I've decided to switch -> PhysicsFS to the zlib license. -> The end result of this is that there will be no -> confusion as to how you can -> use the library ("any way you like") and how you can -> distribute it ("any way -> you like"). The only significant loss is that -> contributers are no longer -> legally obligated to give back source changes, but -> I'm confident that -> developers will if it's generally useful and -> relevant to the public. At least, -> I don't think we should license the library with the -> assumption that -> programmers must have their hands forced to do the -> right thing. -> -> For those that aren't aware of the zlib license, -> here it is. zlib is used in -> all sorts of software without you needing to think -> about it (including -> PhysicsFS), and the license is by far the simplest -> I've ever seen. This is -> the text: -> -> Copyright (c) -> -> This software is provided 'as-is', without any -> express or implied warranty. -> In no event will the authors be held liable for -> any damages arising from -> the use of this software. -> -> Permission is granted to anyone to use this -> software for any purpose, -> including commercial applications, and to alter -> it and redistribute it -> freely, subject to the following restrictions: -> -> 1. The origin of this software must not be -> misrepresented; you must not -> claim that you wrote the original software. If -> you use this software in a -> product, an acknowledgment in the product -> documentation would be -> appreciated but is not required. -> -> 2. Altered source versions must be plainly marked -> as such, and must not be -> misrepresented as being the original software. -> -> 3. This notice may not be removed or altered from -> any source distribution. -> -> -> That's that. -> -> -> Here's how this works: I've compiled a list of all -> contributors to PhysicsFS -> and what was contributed. I need from these people a -> message saying that they -> will approve a switch to the zlib license. Nothing -> fancy, just quote this -> email and say something like "I approve of a switch -> to the zlib license for -> code I own in PhysicsFS." You still own the -> copyright on that bit of code, but -> it'll be under the zlib license. -> -> I can't switch the license until all the developers, -> below, give me permission, -> or their code has been replaced or removed. -> -> If you contributed something and I missed you, -> please let me know. If I don't -> hear from you, I'll try to track you down. If I -> can't track you down, we've -> got to remove or replace your code. -> -> For application developers and end users: you use -> any code up until we switch -> under the LGPL. After the switch, you can use the -> older code under the LGPL -> and the new code under the zlib license. You have -> less restrictions with the -> zlib license, so you'll probably want to upgrade. -> -> -> Please discuss. -> -> --ryan. -> -> -> -> Contributors: -> I tried to list everything, but the LGPL says you -> can cut-and-paste up to ten -> lines of code, so if you fixed a few typos, you -> might not be listed here. If -> this is a concern, please speak up. -> -> -> -> David Hedbor -> ------------ -> Patch to handle situation when CWD is deleted out -> from under program: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/physfs.c?rt=physfs&r1=1.22&r2=1.23&ty=u -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/unix.c?rt=physfs&r1=1.11&r2=1.12&ty=u -> -> Patch to make PHYSFS_setSaneConfig() set Write -> Directory correctly: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/physfs.c?rt=physfs&r1=1.23&r2=1.24&ty=u -> -> PocketPC patches: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/pocketpc.c?rt=physfs&r1=1.1&r2=1.2&ty=u -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/archivers/zip.c?rt=physfs&ws=0&r1=1.61&r2=1.62&ty=u -> -> -> Patrick Stein -> ------------- -> More-portable __PHYSFS_platformTimeslice() for -> Unix: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/unix.c?rt=physfs&ws=0&r1=1.12&r2=1.13&ty=u -> -> General BSD-ish (but originally for Darwin) CD-ROM -> detection: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/unix.c?rt=physfs&ws=0&r1=1.13&r2=1.14&ty=u -> -> -> Gregory S. Read -> --------------- -> Lots of Win32 work (need you to sign off on whole -> file): -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/cvs.php/platform/win32.c?rt=physfs -> -> Microsoft .NET bindings (need you to sign off on -> whole directory tree): -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/cvs.php/extras/PhysFS.NET?rt=physfs -> -> -> John Hall -> --------- -> PHYSFS_getLastModTime() API: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/physfs.c?rt=physfs&r1=1.39&r2=1.40&ty=u -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/macclassic.c?rt=physfs&r1=1.9&r2=1.10&ty=u -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/posix.c?rt=physfs&r1=1.1&r2=1.2&ty=u -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/skeleton.c?rt=physfs&r1=1.3&r2=1.4&ty=u -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/win32.c?rt=physfs&r1=1.18&r2=1.19&ty=u -> -> -> Alexander Pipelka -> ----------------- -> configure.in fixes: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/configure.in?rt=physfs&r1=1.19&r2=1.20&ty=u -> -> doOpen() fix: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/posix.c?rt=physfs&ws=0&r1=1.6&r2=1.7&ty=u -> -> Strange $PATH fix: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/unix.c?rt=physfs&ws=0&r1=1.38&r2=1.39&ty=u -> -> -> Edward Rudd -> ----------- -> RPM specfile (need you to sign off on whole file): -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/cvs.php/physfs.spec.in?rt=physfs -> -> -> Ed Sinjiashvili -> --------------- -> Various Russian translations: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/physfs_internal.h?rt=physfs&r1=1.33&r2=1.34&ty=u -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/physfs_internal.h?rt=physfs&r1=1.34&r2=1.35&ty=u -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/physfs_internal.h?rt=physfs&r1=1.37&r2=1.38&ty=u -> -> Ruby bindings (need you to sign off on whole -> directory tree): -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/cvs.php/extras/physfs_rb?rt=physfs -> -> QPAK archiver (need you to sign off on whole file): -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/cvs.php/archivers/qpak.c?rt=physfs -> -> -> Pedro J. P^Īrez -> --------------- -> Spanish translation: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/physfs_internal.h?rt=physfs&r1=1.35&r2=1.36&ty=u -> -> -> Stepane Peter -> ------------- -> French translation: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/physfs_internal.h?rt=physfs&r1=1.36&r2=1.37&ty=u -> -> -> Michael Renner -> -------------- -> German translation: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/physfs_internal.h?rt=physfs&r1=1.42&r2=1.43&ty=u -> -> -> Adam D. Moss -> ------------ -> extras/abs-file.h (need you to sign off on whole -> file): -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/co.php/extras/abs-file.h?rt=physfs&r=1.3 -> -> -> "Corona688" -> ----------- -> Initial PocketPC port (need you to sign off on -> whole file): -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/co.php/platform/pocketpc.c?rt=physfs&r=1.1 -> -> -> Eric Wing -> --------- -> Apple Project Builder build system (need you to -> sign off on whole dir tree): -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/cvs.php/PBProjects?rt=physfs -> -> MacOS X Application Bundle workarounds: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/unix.c?rt=physfs&r1=1.39&r2=1.40&ty=u -> -> -> Colin Bayer -> ----------- -> Debian package support (need you to sign off on -> whole directory tree): -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/cvs.php/debian?rt=physfs -> -> -> Bradley Bell -> ------------ -> HOG archiver: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/cvs.php/archivers/hog.c?rt=physfs -> -> MVL archiver: -> -> -http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/cvs.php/archivers/mvl.c?rt=physfs -> -> -> -> - - -__________________________________ -Do you Yahoo!? -Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). -http://calendar.yahoo.com - -From xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fri Jun 20 18:07:25 2003 -Date: 16 Jun 2003 16:41:31 +0200 -From: Alexander Pipelka -To: "icculus@clutteredmind.org" -Subject: Re: [physfs] License change proposition. - -Hi Ryan, - -No problem. Please change the licensing model as you like. - -Alex - -PS: Sorry for my late reply, I just returned from vacation. - -Am Mon, 2003-06-09 um 12.50 schrieb Ryan C. Gordon: -> Alexander Pipelka -> ----------------- -> configure.in fixes: -> http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/configure.in?rt=physfs&r1=1.19&r2=1.20&ty=u -> -> doOpen() fix: -> http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/posix.c?rt=physfs&ws=0&r1=1.6&r2=1.7&ty=u -> -> Strange $PATH fix: -> http://cvs.icculus.org/horde/chora/diff.php/platform/unix.c?rt=physfs&ws=0&r1=1.38&r2=1.39&ty=u - - - -From xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Thu Jul 10 03:27:43 2003 -Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 00:10:16 -0700 -From: "xxxxxxxxxxx" -To: "icculus@icculus.org" -Subject: physfs - -I hereby assign the copyright of any changes I have made to PhysicsFS to Ryan Gordon. - -And thanks for asking, even though I obviously wouldn't have a problem with this. - --John - -From xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Thu Jul 10 04:26:07 2003 -Date: 10 Jul 2003 01:23:25 -0700 -From: Colin Bayer -To: Ryan C. Gordon -Subject: physicsfs/zlib - -> Here's how this works: I've compiled a list of all contributors to -PhysicsFS -> and what was contributed. I need from these people a message saying that they -> will approve a switch to the zlib license. Nothing fancy, just quote this -> email and say something like "I approve of a switch to the zlib license for -> code I own in PhysicsFS." You still own the copyright on that bit of code, but -> it'll be under the zlib license. - -I approve of a switch to the zlib license for code I own in PhysicsFS. - --- Colin Bayer - - [ Part 2, "This is a digitally signed message part" ] - [ Application/PGP-SIGNATURE 196bytes. ] - [ Unable to print this part. ] - - -From xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Thu Jul 10 14:40:34 2003 -Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:17:00 -0500 -From: Patrick Stein -To: Ryan C. Gordon -Subject: Re: PhysicsFS license change. - - -Wow... forgot that I had ever written anything for that... -Anyhow... in addition to having no problems with you -changing the license.... I also give to you any say in -any future matters pertaining to the two or three lines -of code that I sent you. 8^) - -alter, -Patrick - - -On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 01:07 PM, Ryan C. Gordon wrote: - -> -> Hey there, -> -> I'm looking to change the licensing on PhysicsFS from LGPL to the zlib -> license. The long explanation is here: -> -> -> http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm- -> cgi?4:mss:209:200306:nhnacekcfbbhichggfpk -> -> If you're reading this, it means that I never got a response on the -> mailing list, either because you aren't subscribed, or because you -> missed -> it, and this is the last email address I have for you....but I need -> explicit permission from you to convert code you wrote (even if it was -> just a natural language translation) to a different license. -> -> If you don't mind switching to zlib, please respond with something -> along -> the lines of "I approve of a switch to the zlib license for code I own -> in -> PhysicsFS." -> -> If you have any problems, that's okay, too, just let me know. -> -> Thanks, -> --ryan. -> - - -From xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Thu Jul 10 14:40:40 2003 -Date: 10 Jul 2003 11:33:26 -0700 -From: Stephane Peter -To: Ryan C. Gordon -Subject: Re: PhysicsFS license change. - -You know, I don't think I ever contributed code to physfs, but if you -manage to find out something I may have, then you have my approval to -switch it to the zlib license... - - -On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 11:07, Ryan C. Gordon wrote: -> Hey there, -> -> I'm looking to change the licensing on PhysicsFS from LGPL to the zlib -> license. The long explanation is here: -> -> http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?4:mss:209:200306:nhnacekcfbbhichggfpk -> -> If you're reading this, it means that I never got a response on the -> mailing list, either because you aren't subscribed, or because you missed -> it, and this is the last email address I have for you....but I need -> explicit permission from you to convert code you wrote (even if it was -> just a natural language translation) to a different license. -> -> If you don't mind switching to zlib, please respond with something along -> the lines of "I approve of a switch to the zlib license for code I own in -> PhysicsFS." -> -> If you have any problems, that's okay, too, just let me know. -> -> Thanks, -> --ryan. --- -Stephane Peter -Sr. Software Engineer -Codehost, Inc. - - - -From xxxxxxxxxxxx Thu Jul 10 21:07:13 2003 -Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:08:44 +0200 (CEST) -From: Michael Renner -To: Ryan C. Gordon -Subject: Re: PhysicsFS license change. - - - -On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Ryan C. Gordon wrote: - -> -> Hey there, -> -> I'm looking to change the licensing on PhysicsFS from LGPL to the zlib -> license. The long explanation is here: - -Hi Ryan! - -For your mailfilters: - -"I approve of a switch to the zlib license for code I own in PhysicsFS." - -The change of license makes sense, what use is a library when the target -audience is reluctant to use it. Keep up the good work. - -Btw. if you need any other non-babelfish english -> german translations -just contact me. - -best regards, -michael renner - -From xxxxxxxxxxxxx Mon Jul 14 16:36:06 2003 -Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:57:28 -0400 -From: Gregory S. Read -To: Ryan C. Gordon -Subject: Re: PhysicsFS license change. - -I have no problem with you licensing my contributed code for PhysFS to -the zlib licensing. - -Have a nice day. - -Greg - -Ryan C. Gordon wrote: - ->Hey there, -> ->I'm looking to change the licensing on PhysicsFS from LGPL to the zlib ->license. The long explanation is here: -> -> http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?4:mss:209:200306:nhnacekcfbbhichggfpk -> ->If you're reading this, it means that I never got a response on the ->mailing list, either because you aren't subscribed, or because you missed ->it, and this is the last email address I have for you....but I need ->explicit permission from you to convert code you wrote (even if it was ->just a natural language translation) to a different license. -> ->If you don't mind switching to zlib, please respond with something along ->the lines of "I approve of a switch to the zlib license for code I own in ->PhysicsFS." -> ->If you have any problems, that's okay, too, just let me know. -> ->Thanks, ->--ryan. -> -> -> -> - - -From xxxxxxxxxxxx Mon Jul 14 16:36:15 2003 -Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:26:38 -0600 -From: Tyler Montbriand -To: Ryan C. Gordon -Subject: Re: PhysicsFS license change. - - [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ] - [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ] - [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ] - -Hello. Sorry for delay in reply, things've been messed up for the last couple -while.. - -I think that changing it to the Zlib license is a great idea... never -realized there were those sort of complications with the LGPL - thought it -was a much less restrictive license than your plain vanilla GPL, but I guess -not less restrictive enough. I've no problem at all with you putting any of -the code I've contributed under the Zlib license. - --Tyler Montbriand/Corona688 - -On Thursday 10 July 2003 12:07 pm, you wrote: -> Hey there, -> -> I'm looking to change the licensing on PhysicsFS from LGPL to the zlib -> license. The long explanation is here: -> -> -> http://icculus.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm/ezmlm-cgi?4:mss:209:200306:nhnacekcfbbhich ->ggfpk -> -> If you're reading this, it means that I never got a response on the -> mailing list, either because you aren't subscribed, or because you missed -> it, and this is the last email address I have for you....but I need -> explicit permission from you to convert code you wrote (even if it was -> just a natural language translation) to a different license. -> -> If you don't mind switching to zlib, please respond with something along -> the lines of "I approve of a switch to the zlib license for code I own in -> PhysicsFS." -> -> If you have any problems, that's okay, too, just let me know. -> -> Thanks, -> --ryan. - - -From xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sun Jul 20 23:59:48 2003 -Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:09:24 +0400 -From: Ed Sinjiashvili -To: Ryan C. Gordon -Subject: PhysicsFS license change -Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:15:32 +0400 -Resent-From: Ed Sinjiashvili -Resent-To: "Ryan C. Gordon" - -Hi, - -I have just read the news on icculus.org and I guess I'm one of the -two contributors you could not contact (at least I did not got any -mails from PhysicsFS mailing list for quite a while - so I did not -know what was happenning). - -I really have no problems with this licence switch from LGPL to zlib -and I agree to sign all my contributions (qpak archiver, ruby bindings -and russian translations) under zlib. - -I saw that you removed all my contributions from PhysicsFS - now that -I agreed to license change you could revert them. - --- Ed - -P.S. I have mail on icculus.org - if you can't reach me I guess -xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is always possible. -